Baldwin Fire Officials Pursuing Lock Boxes
And other remaining notes from a July 10 borough meeting.
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Firefighters, Council at Odds Over Lock Boxes
Fed up with trying to track down business owners to unlock doors while responding to emergency calls, local fire officials are asking that owners place lock boxes at their businesses for off-hours access.
The officials—Chad Hurka, president of the South Baldwin Volunteer Fire Company; Jim Barbour, assistant chief of the Option Independent Fire Company; Bill Connors, deputy chief of Baldwin Independent Fire Company No. 1; and Kenneth Guerra, Baldwin's emergency management coordinator, appeared before the Baldwin Borough Council on Tuesday night to ask for the council's help in mandating cooperation.
But council members are hesitant to force business owners' hands.
Council member Michael Stelmasczyk, for example, said that he fears a potential lawsuit from a business owner possibly claiming that a lock box would violate his or her Fourth Amendment rights—protection from unreasonable searches and seizures.
A lock box, known popularly as the brand name "KNOX BOX," would allow firefighters and other emergency workers access to keys or remote openings to places that are otherwise locked. The idea behind lock boxes is to allow quick access to fires and other emergency situations while also causing as little damage as possible to private property.
"The No. 1 reason is safety," Hurka said. "In order for us to efficiently get into a building, it's just quicker to unlock a key door rather than bash it down.
"And also, maybe there's a child on the other side of the door (as in an apartments complex situation). They don't know how to unlock 'cause they're so young. Maybe their parents are incapacitated. We don't wanna force that door open if there's a child on the other side of it."
Hurka went on to say that lock boxes would financially benefit business owners.
"I don't how much it costs to get your door replaced," he said, "but I'm sure that, if you were a business owner, you'd rather have us unlock a key door and just walk in, especially if nothing's wrong.
"There could be several scenarios where we might assume that something might be wrong behind that door, but it turns out it's just nothing at all. But we've broken your door for nothing.
"If there's no keyholder immediately available, we're gonna bust down that door because we don't know if there's a fire growing behind there or not."
Hurka also said, in trying to cool Fourth Amendment concerns, that many lock boxes have the ability to trace who has access to them and who has used that access.
"No personal firefighter or anybody else would have a key directly in their possession," Hurka said. "They will all be stored in the Sentralok system. It must be opened with the correct authority."
But Councilman Ed Moeller said that he prefers that business owners willfully participate in a lock boxes program rather than be forced into compliance. Moeller suggested that Hurka, Barbour, Connors and Guerra make the same presentation that they were making to the council to local business owners.
"See what businesses are willing to turn around and do that without it being mandatory," Moeller said. "The more you get those people volunteering into it, it's a snowball effect. To turn around and just all of a sudden say, 'This is the way it's going to be,' you're just ramming your head against a wall."
Barbour and Guerra said that a council interaction with the owners, though, would carry more weight.
"If you're not gonna enforce it," Guerra said to council members, "whatever we say means nothing."
Community Day Public Reactions Meeting
The Baldwin Council will hold a special meeting on Tuesday, July 24, at 6 p.m. to discuss its recent 2012 Community Day and to get input from the public on future community days.
The meeting will be held in the municipal building along Churchview Avenue.
"Community Day was (once) an event," Moeller said. "We've lost that a bit.
"The idea is not to bash anybody (at this meeting); it's to improve it."
Mayor Alexander R. Bennett Jr. said that he would like to see local fire companies more prominently featured during Community Day.
$600/Year Sewage Increase for Baldwin Residents?
Read here.
Parking Debate Continues at Baldwin Council Meeting
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In This article
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South Baldwin Volunteer Fire Company
5311 McAnulty Rd, Pittsburgh, PA -
Option Independent Fire Company
825 Streets Run Rd, Pittsburgh, PA -
Baldwin Independent Fire Company No. 1
3049 Churchview Ave, Pittsburgh, PA -
Baldwin Borough Municipal Complex
3344 Churchview Ave, Pittsburgh, PA
JustMe
1:49 am on Thursday, July 12, 2012
Sorry but as an owner of a business I think this is a very stupid idea.
FIRST Robberies. Say I have a lock box on my business, then anyone can go up to my business at night, break in the LOCK BOX, use the key and rob me blind. If this happens is Baldwin Borough going to take responsibility of paying for what is stolen because someone use my key to break in. Or is Baldwin going to pay for camera's on the Lock Boxes of all business and pay someone to watch the cameras. I would rather take the chance of them breaking my door down and turn it into insurance.
SECOND: These keys will be kept at a centralized location, or they would have a Generic key that open all Lock Boxes and every Fireman, EMS or Police will end up with this Generic Key and are they going to run background checks and bond everyone against stealing. After all some fireman have caused fires in vacant building because someone wants to put out fires so how do we know someone isn't going to turn out to be a thief because they have excess to these keys.
Fourth- My Fourth Amendment Right, how do I know they Police won't go in and search my place for information, then go to the courts and get a search warrant then come back when my business is open and serve me with it.
No Thank You, I will take the chance on a broken door and have the insurance company pay for a door or window.
JustMe
2:08 am on Thursday, July 12, 2012
Next will you be making all residents have lock boxes for the same reason and take away their Fourth Amendment Rights. Just like obamacare taking my rights away from me.
Chad Hurka
6:45 am on Thursday, July 12, 2012
I would like to encourage you to go to the Knox Box website and read about them. http://www.knoxbox.com/
They are made from a heavy gauge steel and would be recessed in the wall. You could beat on it all day with a sledgehammer and it won't break open. It is much easier to throw a brick through your window and enter your business that way. Also, these boxes tie into your security system, so any amount of tampering will trip the system.
Master keys will be in limited supply and will be kept in emergency apparatuses. They will be stored in the Knox Box Sentra Lock system which only has two ways of being opened. The first is a two way radio signal sent from dispatch and the second is an emergency override pin number also sent from dispatch. Both boxes, the one containing the master key and the one at the place of business have full audit capabilities.
If you do a quick internet search, you can find examples of ordinances from nearby areas that require Knox Boxes. West Mifflin, Bellvue, and Munhall are just a few who have required them for several years. Have you ever heard of these boroughs having issues with their boxes?
Regarding the police, many boroughs also chose not to allow the police to have these keys for precisely the reason you stated, but if you don't have anything illegal, then what do you have to fear?
JustMe
7:41 am on Thursday, July 12, 2012
Chad I read about them last night. I don't do anything illegal in my business other than drug testing, and we do high profile people. What would happen if someone was in my business and their paper work was stolen and their drug test scores were released. I would have many law suits against me.
Sorry I'll take my chances with them breaking my door down and having the insurance play to replace it. That is why I pay for it. In the last 18 years that I have been at my location, there has never been a need for the police, fire department or emt to get into my place of business. Thank goodness my business isn't in Baldwin or I would be moving.
bd
8:25 am on Thursday, July 12, 2012
What we should be afraid of is someone in a position of authority saying, " but if you don't have anything illegal, then what do you have to fear?"
Chad Hurka
12:02 pm on Thursday, July 12, 2012
Please do not imply that I am not respective of the freedoms afforded to us by the Constitution.
The point I was trying to make was that Lock Box or not Lock Box, if there is an emergency situation at your place of business that requires us to make entry, we will find a way to get in. If the cause of the emergency is illegal in nature, there is obviously some sort of action required on behalf of law enforcement.
JustMe
2:21 pm on Thursday, July 12, 2012
bd, I have to agree with you. I would rather take my chances and have them break down my door instead of taking my rights away. I have insurance on my building and if need be I would rather turn a receipt for my door being busted to insurance company.
JustMe
1:29 pm on Thursday, July 12, 2012
Break-ins mean emergency lock boxes are no secret anymore
BELLEVUE -- At least two arrests have been made in Bellevue where locked key boxes mounted to apartment buildings have been broken into, allowing thieves inside.
Similar investigations are underway in Seattle and Kirkland. The cases create an interesting safety issue -- the lock boxes can mean the difference between life and death but police and firefighters know they can longer keep the boxes a secret.
Firefighters protect buildings and save lives. That's why many cities, including Bellevue, require emergency lock boxes on the exteriors of buildings that contain keys to the main doors.
If an alarm goes off, firefighters use a master key to open the box, grab the building keys and go in. They don't have to break in and they can get to fires more quickly and safely.
But if improperly mounted, the boxes can be forced open or removed by thieves who can use the keys for all the wrong reasons.
Knox Box, the nation's largest maker of the keys told us they are aware of the Seattle area break-ins and are working with police. But they also say when the boxes are properly mounted, using the company's instructions for placement, they are almost impossible to open or remove without being detected.he local security company Sonitrol is now advising customers to wire their boxes to trip alarms if tampered with. Fire departments advise building owners make daily inspections to check for tampering.
JustMe
2:11 pm on Thursday, July 12, 2012
Sorry but asking me to put a Lock Box or Knox Box on my business is against the Fourth Amendment.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Chad -since a limited amount of keys are going to be available how are you going to guarantee that within a year that everyone in the borough fired dept or police dept aren't going to have keys. Is the Borough going to sign papers stating that if someone gets into my business and spreads sensitive information that the Borough is going to cover my legal fee's and the amount that i'm being sued for. My business deals with sensitive information that could ruin people lives if this information is spread around. What if it was you that failed a drug test for your real job, you did your rehab and have been coming up clean every month but it is being spread around that your a drug addict. Would you wave your right to sue since I was forced to put a lock box on my business. I didn't think so.
What about the pharmacy that was busted into because of everyone ending up with a key for these boxes and now we got illegal drugs on the street.
This is just as bad as obamacare, actually worse cause your taking away my amendment right.
schleprock
4:01 am on Monday, July 16, 2012
After reading the information Chad provided, these keys wouldn't be issued to individual personnel. They would be placed in a box electronically controled (as Chad stated) on each fire truck and there seem to be a lot of preventive measures built into these boxes to prevent easy access for any emergency personnel. If access was made to these keys located at the business or within the emergency vehicles, they can be easily tracked. I believe that these boxes would protect the employees that became trapped in a building that was on fire or had other hazardous conditions by providing faster access to Fire and EMS. I would be more concerned about the employer that was not open to do what they could to protect their employees. They would also allow quicker access to reduce damage to the critical information and work you are speaking of at your place of business. I understand your concerns with the 4th Amendment but if the police dont have access to these keys, you would not have to worry about illegal searches. I think the pros out way the cons on this one in that a few minutes can mean the difference between life or death.
Margaret French
10:49 am on Sunday, July 15, 2012
Just me- I do not live in Baldwin nor do I have a business there but I agree with you you 100% on everything you said.